Wendy Briggs
Hello, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Double Your Production podcast. I'm Wendy Briggs here with my partner, Dr. John Meis. Hello, Dr. John.
John Meis
Hey, Wendy, how you doing?
Wendy Briggs
I'm doing amazing. I'm super excited about our podcast today. We have an incredible guest with us who's actually going to be one of our featured speakers at our upcoming Champions of Dentistry Summit 2024 in New Orleans, the end of April. So we are so excited to have Dr. Paul Schemp here with us today as our guest.
John Meis
I am too.
John Meis
Yeah. Paul, you want to give us an idea of kind of what you do and how you got into the field?
Paul Schempp
Certainly, yeah. I'm a professor at the University of Georgia and I run a research laboratory where we try to identify the differentiators between the people who are consistently successful at the highest level and the people who are competent. Not the bad ones, but just, if you will, the average. And most of us, by the way, John and Wendy, you know this, we're average. But what is the differentiator? How did I get into that? Well, early in my career, I discovered something that wasn't too comfortable.
I wasn't very good at what I did, but I wanted to be, because I had great passion for what I did. I wanted to be a coach. And so I thought maybe if I went back to the university, they would teach me how to coach better. Well, John, as you know, that didn't happen, but what they did teach me is how to do research. So at the end of my time there, they said, Paul, what would you like to study? Well, my answer was, it's not so much what I want to study. I want to study people. It's who I want to study. I want to study people who are consistently good, great, if you will, at what they do. Because if I could understand that, well, maybe I could do that too. And that journey has been almost 40 years, John. And that's what I'm going to share with you this afternoon. One part of that research we've discovered is decision-making. And Wendy and John, I'm sure you'll agree with me. One of the things that helps us be successful is the ability or the skill, if you will, to make great decisions. Also, and people underestimate this, the ability to avoid bad decisions. And so let's talk about either of those today. I'll leave it up to you. Ask the questions. I'm ready to go. Excited to be here.
John Meis
All right, well, I'll start out with decision-making. It's not something you're necessarily born with, good decision-making. It's not in your DNA necessarily. It's really a skill. So why don't you talk a little bit about the science of making good decisions?
Paul Schempp
Sure. And John, I completely agree with you. It is a skill, which means we can learn it, we practice it, we could develop it. We have the potential to be really good decision makers, or at least better than we have been in the past. The science, well, because it's so important to any human endeavor, whether you're talking about a hobby, a profession, whatever it might be, your ability to make good decisions is critical. So that's led scientists over the last couple of decades to try to identify two things. One is, what are the factors required to make good decisions? And then secondly, what's the process for making good decisions? And there's a wealth of knowledge on either of those factors.
John Meis
Yeah, very good.
Wendy Briggs
Yeah, super good. You know, and I would say for me, I think one thing that people would be interested to know, and certainly I love where you're going with this. We love, that's why we call our summit the Champions of Dentistry, which is why it was such a great fit to have you come speak to our people because they're studying how to become the very best in their field. And I think sometimes we get stuck a little bit with problems and challenges, and we think that maybe what does decision making have to do with those problems? Have you found that there are steps that people could actually use to harness those problems and challenges or harness decision making when they come up against an obstacle that helps them succeed or become a better performer on the other side?
Paul Schempp
Yeah, absolutely, Wendy. And by the way, my dentist is one of my best friends. And when I'm sitting in his chair, I absolutely want him to make good decisions. But you mentioned the process of that. Yeah, it usually begins by defining the problem. I know that sounds very simple, but you know, most people kind of skip through that. The research that we've done, and also was conducted at the University of Pittsburgh, and they found the very same thing, that expert decision makers spend more time, more time, defining the problem because they know if they don't have the problem right, there's no hope of getting the solution right. And so that's really the first step. Even if you think you've seen this problem before, take half a step back and take a look at it and make sure you really understand that this is the problem, not the symptoms, but this is really the cause of what's happening. Because once you do that, the second step is,
What are the factors that are causing this problem? Because once you can uncover those, you can do the third step, and that's craft potential solutions. And that's the second thing that differentiates great decision makers. Most of us will come up with a solution, we'll run it, and we'll just keep going with it because it's a solution. Now, the great problem solvers, the great decision makers, will come up with this solution and then what if that doesn't work out? I need option B, I need option C, I need option D. When you do that before you try to implement a solution, a couple of things. First of all, you have a greater range because you can say, you know, when I really step back, option C is really a much better way to go than my original option A. Or maybe I can take B and D, combine them for a better solution. And then here's the really great thing that we discovered about expert problem solvers is that when they, and this is the final step, when they implement the solution, they'll evaluate it, and they'll refine it. And sometimes they'll replace it. And if you've made multiple decisions, you've already automatically have your contingencies, B, C, D, ready to go. And that's what when the action begins, that's what really differentiates the great ones from the average ones. Great question. Thank you, Wendy.
John Meis
Yeah, fantastic. So one of the places, Paul, that we run into people having a difficult time making decisions is that we have a program called our executive GPS. It's a five year strategic planning process. It's a it's a weekend event. And so often people are kind of stuck because the future is such a mystery.
Wendy Briggs
interesting.
Paul Schempp
Yes
John Meis
We don't know what's going to end. So they struggle to make a decision on a course of action because they don't know what the future holds. So how do we deal with that in making good decisions?
Paul Schempp
Yeah, that's really two things involved there. One is uncertainty. We just don't know what the future is going to hold. And what we find with really good decision makers is they use two data sources to help them determine what the future might bring. One is they look for trends in data, like they know the certain factors that are most going to influence the future. For example, let's take dentistry. Technology has made huge changes in dentistry just in the last few years, a little in the last few decades, well, anybody that kind of follows those patterns is going to be able to know what to do. And so for example, the upcoming generation now uses technology, much like we're using here, iPhones, iPads, computers to get information. I think dentists are gonna be looking to help inform their patients about upcoming surgeries, for example, with YouTubes.
Just as they see that pattern, it's going to connect better and provide a better solution for what those people are thinking. So we look for patterns in data. The other is contributing factors, which means that anytime we have a decision or a solution, there's not just one factor that's going to influence it. So we can measure the various factors and have an idea which one fills up the vial most, that's going to happen. We're going to allow us to predict the future a little bit better, at least our success in the future. Like for example, the people that are coming to the conference, they know coming to the conference, they're going to be more educated. That's a factor that helps people be successful, yes? So in coming to our conference, they're going to be able to predict that they can be more successful in the future with that knowledge. That's just one of those factors. And John, I want to bring up, I think you're really right about people in uncertainty feel a level of discomfort. Because anytime we need to make a change, that's progress. Anytime we want to make a progress or improvement, that's a change. Most of us aren't that comfortable with change. And so it forces us to procrastinate, put things off. And that's usually not in the best situation. So when you're facing an uncertain situation, you've got to ask yourself, why am I delaying this decision? And if the answer is, I just don't want to take the risk,
Paul Schempp
You've got to move forward with that. And I'll give you one thing that helps. Get some help. Get some advice. Talk to a mentor, for example, or a colleague. They'll help you work through it. Nobody sails a ship by themselves. And so if you want to make a great decision, uncertainty is one of the factors that challenges that. Talk to other people, particularly your peers.
Wendy Briggs (11:51.9)
Yeah, I really love that Dr. Schaenke, you know, one of the things that we often do at our retreats is we do what we call a practice spotlight or a hot seat, and that allows them to actually connect with members of their peers and get, use the collective knowledge of the group. That brings me to my next question though. Sometimes I wonder about that. You know, if there's too many chiefs, not enough Indians, for example, in dentistry, we always talk about the fact that dentistry is a team sport. And sometimes we try to make decisions by committee in the practice.
Paul Schempp
Mm-hmm.
Paul Schempp
Mm-hmm.
Paul Schempp
Right.
Yeah.
Wendy Briggs
and there's so many people involved in that. You know, there's an adage that's saying two heads are better than one, but how does that really apply to decision-making? Can you get too many people in the mix?
Paul Schempp
Right. Yes. You make a great point there, Wendy. Great decisions aren't a democratic process. Now with that said, are two heads better than one? Absolutely. But here's what it is. Let's say you, John, and I were trying to make a decision. Well, one of us is ultimately responsible for that decision. One of us has more power than the other. Let's say, for example, it's my dental practice and I'm talking to the two of you as colleagues. Ultimately, the decision I make is my responsibility. So one of the things that we do with what we call team decision-making is called consensus with qualification. In other words, I get your opinion, Wendy, and I really value it. I listen to you closely because you know what? You don't bring in the same biases. You bring in other knowledge. You bring in other experiences that I don't have. I can benefit from that. And John does the same thing, but ultimately it's my responsibility. So when I make the decision, I come back to you and I come back to John and I said, listen, Wendy, John, I really appreciate your input, but I've decided to go in this direction for these reasons. Now, you need to know, I really do value your opinion. And when I have another challenge like this, I'm coming back to you. But because ultimately it's my responsibility, I'm gonna qualify that opinion and I'm gonna take responsibility for it.
And in almost every team decision, Wendy, somebody has to take the leadership role. Ultimately, somebody has to take the responsibility if it's successful, but more importantly, if it's not successful. And I think that is really critical because otherwise too many cooks do spoil the broth.
John Meis
Yeah. So yes, yes. Yeah. Trying to make everybody happy rather than making a decision that's going to be best for, yeah, best for everybody. But not everybody can see that has the same perspective. So I love the way you talked about having multiple solutions already kind of in the mix. And before you decide, we talk about we use the term.
Wendy Briggs
Yes, we see that too often, right Dr. John? We see analysis, right?
John Meis
We're going to move forward with this. We made a decision. Here's where we're going to move forward with. We're going to call it the current draft, right? Which tells everybody this is it, but we're not stuck. It's not written in stone. If it doesn't work, we're going to adapt it. We're going to change. And so I like the way that you kind of have that laid out ahead of time. So at the end of our, we have quarterly retreats, the biggest of which is the summit, which you'll be at. But in those retreats, we always
Paul Schempp
Good for you.
John Meis
leave time for them to create a plan of action. What are they going to actually, they learned a bunch of stuff, what are they actually going to go back and execute? So do you have any pointers on making good strategic decisions about what those action plans might be?
Paul Schempp
Yeah, you bring up a great one, John. Sometimes we try to be too polite with people because here's what happens. Let's say you're attacking my idea. I think you're attacking me and you're not. You're attacking the idea. You're prosecuting the idea. And ultimately I'll benefit from that because John, I'd rather know that this idea is not gonna work when you and I are having a conversation rather than in a year or two years or five years down the road.
You saw that I was making a mistake, but you were too polite to say so. And I have to have the big boy pants to say, listen, John's not attacking me. He's attacking the idea. I respect John. He's trying to help me here. I need to listen a little more carefully. And we often forget that in the mix of our group decision making, that we really need to attack the idea. That's part of the process of coming to a good decision.
Does that address what you were just bringing up?
Wendy Briggs
Yeah.
John Meis
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Wendy Briggs
Yeah, and I think as one that has been in those situations, I think that's such a great strategy to separate the person from the idea, right? Because sometimes you really have a lot of respect for the person, but because of your biases or experiences, you may understand that it may not go as well. Let's talk about that for just a minute. Again, no matter how hard we prepare, we can never have all the information we need to make a decision.
Paul Schempp
Mm-hmm.
Wendy Briggs
And especially when we're faced with decisions that may be uncertain or risky, things that, you know, as you mentioned, change isn't easy and we want to make some changes, we know we need to make changes, but we're not certain if it's the right move for us at that given time. Do you have any strategies or tactics that we can employ when we're faced with uncertain or riskier decisions?
Paul Schempp
Yeah, it basically, and this, I don't mean to sound like I'm repeating myself, but it basically follows the same process that we use for any other decisions. In other words, let's define the problem. Let's find the factors that are causing it or factors that will contribute to being successful in the future. Let's come up with some solutions or ideas or some strategies, and then let's try them out and be willing to change. Now, here's the difference with uncertainty is that you have to realize the discomfort that you're gonna have doing that. You're gonna have to also identify if we do, let's say, a solution, what are the potential benefits? What are the potential risks? Let's look at B, if we do that, what are the potential benefits? What are the potential risks? And ultimately what you wanna do is have three or four conclusions, solutions, whatever you wanna call them. And I would suggest picking the one that maximizes the benefits and minimizes the risks.
It may not be the home run shot, to use a sport metaphor, or the Hail Mary pass to the end zone, but it's going to be a reasonably good decision. And I think in times of uncertainty, particularly when risk is great, that's usually a strategy to go with. And you have to recognize, not every decision you're gonna make is gonna be perfect. And you just have to live with that and appreciate the fact that you really gave this your best effort.
There's certain things that happen that you couldn't control. And I'll give you one that we underestimate decision making. Luck. Sometimes we're just lucky. And other times, no matter how good the decision was, we got unlucky. Something popped up we didn't anticipate, and we got our head handed to us. It happens. You gotta pick yourself up and try to make the best of what you got. That was a great question, by the way. And I see that.
John Meis
And when you have 10.
Paul Schempp
really hurting so many people and organizations.
John Meis
And when you have really good luck, don't think that means you're brilliant. If you have bad luck, you know, don't mean doesn't mean you're an idiot. And if you have good luck, doesn't mean you're brilliant. So in reading up on you, I see that you've done some work in really in applying neuroscience to making decisions. I just finished Steven Kotler's program on neuroscience and it's been fascinating.
Paul Schempp
Great point, John!
John Meis
to me because there are certain things that happen within the dental office that really has to do with neuroscience, with neurotransmitter depletion. So anyway, I'm curious to hear your ideas about neuroscience and decision-making.
Paul Schempp
Mm-hmm. Yeah. In our context, in my research laboratory, we use... I don't have it here. We use a little band that we put on people's heads and then we simulate pressure decisions and we look at how expert decision makers navigate that experience and how usually their novices or mid-level people navigate the same thing. And that little band allows us to monitor the electrical activity in the brain.
So we can see two things really. We can see the amount of intensity of the neural pattern firing in the brain. And we can also see something else. We can see which parts of the brain are being used. One of the things that we have found is that when people get into, and this normally happens with beginners, even sometimes competent people, when they get into a panic mode, when fear takes in, the brain just kind of goes crazy and it's firing in all directions.
And what kicks in is what traditionally we've known as fight or flight. And what happens is a hormone's released in the brain. The common name is cortisol. And what it does is it comes to the front of the brain, which is the prefrontal cortex. That's where actually the problem-solving, the decision-making part of the brain is. It shuts it down. So we can't make logical analytic thoughts. And here's why. If you were walking across the street, Wendy or John,
and you saw a car coming at you, you don't want your brain to be thinking, hmm, car's approaching about 27 miles an hour, I'm about 135 yards away, how fast do I, no, you get out of the way. So there's times that protects us. But when you're in a fearful situation, say, or an angry situation, anger's another one that kills us, the same thing happens in your brain, it shuts down your ability to be logical. And so you lash out.
There's parts of your brain that are firing that ordinarily wouldn't fire to help you make a good decision And so you do things that later you regret and sometimes you even say I have no idea why I said that I have no idea why I did that so in situations like that It's better to do these things first of all if you have to make the decision in the moment because sometimes pressure is a time thing Take a deep breath Close your eyes
Paul Schempp
And think about, you remember the movie Happy Gilmore, go to your happy place, do something that's gonna distract you. Here's why, it'll help calm the brain down. It'll help get those electrical impulses into a range that'll be more productive to good thought. It'll help flush out some of those hormones that aren't doing you any good. It just gives you a minute to collect yourself. We all need that. You'll see that with great athletes, for example.
They may lean down, put their hands on their knees, close their eyes, take a deep breath before they go up to bat or whatever it might be. Well, we can do that too in our situations. Another one is just take 24 hours. Come back to the problem. Things are gonna settle out. You'll have time to work it over. And so when you talk about the neuroscience of the brain, it allows us to understand the brain in ways we never knew before. We make bad decisions sometimes because it's physiological.
It's not an analytic process. We have to allow our physiology to get in line with making good, solid analytic decisions. Did that answer the question, John?
John Meis
Yeah, absolutely did. Yeah, fantastic.
Wendy Briggs
Super interesting. So when you put that band on the brain, does it also measure, does it tell you if a person's open-minded, closed-minded, making decisions with biases? Like how much intelligence do you really get out of that? That's really fascinating to me because, you know.
Paul Schempp
Yeah, the instruments we use, we can't do that. We can only identify the amount of, if you will, electricity going through each neuron and what sections of the brain are being lit up by it. No, we can't tell how emotional somebody is or how intelligent they are.
Wendy Briggs
Yes, you know, for me.
John Meis
But it brings a good question. We all carry biases, you know, and how do we overcome that to make better decisions?
Paul Schempp
Oh, absolutely.
Paul Schempp
Yeah. You know, one of the I'm glad you brought that up, John. You know, one of the things that we have consistently found with experts and confident performers, whether you're talking about coaches or business leaders, is something that's called the Dunning Kruger effect. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it basically says you believe you're smarter and more skillful than you really are. And so what it does is it leads people to believing they've got more confidence than they really need.
John Meis
Yes.
Paul Schempp
or that they really have. Well, what we find with the experts is they don't have that. It doesn't influence that quite as much. They realize they don't know everything or they're not as highly skilled. I remember one coach that we studied, if you know something about college football, his name is Bobby Bowden. Unfortunately, Coach Bowden passed away, I think it'll be four years this coming August. But I asked him on a scale of one to 10, Bobby.
How much do you know to coach football? 10 meaning you couldn't learn anymore. At the time I asked him, he was the all time winningest college football coach in history at the division one level. Joe Paterno, Penn State has that honor, rightly so. And 10, you couldn't be more than that. And Bobby said to me, he would rate himself about a six. And I said, coach, nobody's won more college football games in history than you have. And you know, six out of 10? And he goes, no.
Probably closer to five, half, really. And I said, you're gonna have to explain that to me. And here was his explanation. When I stop learning, we'll start losing and I'll want out. And I responded that as well, most people consider you an expert coach. He goes, I don't consider myself an expert. So I asked him the question, what do you consider yourself? He said, a work in progress.
John Meis
Yeah.
Paul Schempp
And to me, that's how he got to that level of greatness. That's how he was able to maintain that level of greatness. And so, yeah, the biases don't come in like they did to him. He realizes that he had his bias, that he couldn't do tomorrow what he did yesterday and be successful. So he was open-minded to new ideas wherever they may come. Did he use them all? No, but he listened to them because he had that level of humility.
John Meis
Yeah.
Yeah, the phrase I used to describe that fits in perfectly. And that is that which you're most confident about, you should be most curious about as well. Right. Because it kind of keeps you balanced because you can be 100% confident and 100% wrong. And I have been. So we all have been at one time or another. So awesome. Very good. Wendy, any other questions?
Paul Schempp
Yeah, good point. Right.
Wendy Briggs
Yeah. No, I think this is a great opportunity for our listeners and of course our attendees at our summit to really get into some of the things that we've studied for a long time in a different way. So how do we capture that essence of the results that we want? A lot of it has to go, it goes back to the very basic moment when we have decisions to make. And I think sometimes personally, I know I get trapped by fear of doing the wrong thing. Analysis paralysis, all of those things that we've kind of chatted about a little bit. So I am really excited to learn more from you. And I know that our listeners will be too. I know that sometimes in the dental operatories, in the room when we're dealing with patients, we probably, I know I did as a provider, fall victim to some of those traps of thinking that this patient's negative experiences or the patient's biases are important influencing their decision to move forward with care or their decision to not move forward with care. All of these things, no matter where we are, what seat we sit in on the bus and the practice, will have, I think, an impact on our day-to-day work as we strive to help patients get the care they need. So I'm excited to learn more about this topic.
Paul Schempp
Well, great. I think you're spot on with that, Wendy. And I'll also share this with you. I'm gonna be there the night before I'm supposed to speak and then I'll be there afterwards. So anybody want to approach me, talk to me about anything that we discussed in the podcast or anything in the keynote, I'm happy to do that. I'm excited to come.
John Meis
Yeah, I think you.
John Meis
Yeah, that's terrific. We're excited to have you. It's going to be like everybody can see why we chose you as one of our key speakers, because you're really going to bring a different point of view and something that doesn't really, isn't really talked about in our world very often. So it's fantastic. All right, that's it for this episode of the Double Your Production podcast. Thanks so much for being with us and we'll see you next time.
Wendy Briggs
Thanks everybody.
